Amillennialist

Arguing for the Analogy of Scripture

In Uncategorized on July 17, 2006 at 8:38 PM

Sometimes it is tempting to think one has discovered in Scripture some new, secret meaning previously hidden to the Church. Unless one is humble enough to let Scripture interpret Scripture, error easily comes from such “creativity.

More from here:

In response to Mark Call:

Hear me, all of you, and understand:

There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.

And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled? Thus He declared all foods clean.)

And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.

All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person (Mark 7).

In the same way, brothers and sisters, you have died to the laws in Moses’ Teachings through Christ’s body. You belong to someone else, the one who was brought back to life. As a result, we can do what God wants (Romans 7).

If your spiritual nature is your guide, you are not subject to Moses’ laws (Galatians 5).

But now we have died to those laws that bound us. God has broken their effect on us so that we are serving in a new spiritual way, not in an old way dictated by written words (Romans 7).

Christ is the fulfillment of Moses’ Teachings, so that everyone who has faith may receive God’s approval (Romans 10).

Before Christ came, Moses’ laws served as our guardian. Christ came so that we could receive God’s approval by faith. But now that this faith has come, we are no longer under the control of a guardian (Galatians 3).

He brought an end to the commandments and demands found in Moses’ Teachings so that he could take Jewish and non-Jewish people and create one new humanity in himself. So he made peace (Ephesians 2).

Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, and do not again be held with the yoke of bondage.

Behold, I, Paul, say to you that if you are circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do all the Law…(Galatians 5).

Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me (1 Timothy 1).

But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned (Titus 3).

A Christian will obey Christ–as a result of saving faith.

Since Christ removed from His people the requirement of keeping the Mosaic law, to which commands was He referring?

The commands we will obey are found throughout the New Testament (not the Mosaic regulations).

Rather than put your confidence in your observing rules God says are no longer in effect over us, put your faith in Christ’s work alone.

And if you want to refrain from pork and shellfish, go for it. But do not add to God’s Word by saying that if we love Him, we too will do so. That is heresy.

When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.” In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased.

Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—I have come to do your will, O God.'”

First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all (Hebrews 9 and 10).

***

I had hoped you would be persuaded by the clear testimony of the Word of God.

If not, at least others will be able to judge for themselves.

Mark 7:18:

And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)

Galatians 5 (How can Paul forbid any command of Christ, if–as you contend–Jesus wants us to obey all the Mosaic Covenant’s regulations?):

For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.

…For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

Colossians 2:

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Hebrews 4:

So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

Hebrews 7:

On the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath, but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, ‘You are a priest forever.'”

This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.

Hebrews 8:

For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer.

Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.”

But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.”

In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 9:

For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Hebrews 12:

…Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant….

Luke 22:

And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Peace be with you.

If the Covenant “was there from the beginning,” then it wasn’t new.

The New Covenant replaced the Old, as noted above.

You’re conflating the contract with the One Who made it.

***

Mark Call wrote:

THOSE things alone are why I reject the misinterpretation that implies God was wrong.

That is your inference.

I have only stated what YHWH said about His Old and New Covenants.

…that His covenants were flawed and had to be ‘done away with’, when the Truth is that He DID “know the end from the beginning” and have “all things” worked out.

God’s replacing the Old Covenant with the New does not in any way imply a lack of omniscience.

Obeying His commands cannot possibly mean the Mosaic regulations since He established the “new covenant.” He declared all food “clean.” He said that no one is to judge with regard to Sabbaths or food.

If you are a Christian, you will listen to Christ. His Word on this topic is sufficiently noted above.

Regards,

Amillennialist

By the way, I don’t disagree that something (not essential meaning) can be lost in a translation from one language to another, but just so you know, in this thread I’ve used the following:

-God’s Word to the Nations

-The New International Version

-The Authorized King James Version, 1611

-The English Standard Version

***

Mark Call says:

“God’s REPLACING the Old Covenant with the New…” is a lie.

But God says (quoted more fully above in this thread):

“…He declared all foods clean” (Mark 7:18).

Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience…If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience…For why should my liberty be determined by someone else’s conscience?” (1 Corinthians 10).

“…neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything” (Galatians 5).

Let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come…” (Colossians 2).

The Old Covenant “…was being brought to an end…,” “…once had glory…,” “…has come to have no glory at all…,” and “…was being brought to an end…” (2 Corinthians 3).

“…a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced…Jesus [is] the guarantor of a better covenant (Hebrews 7).

Christ’s new ministry is “…much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better….”

“…if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second….”

I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers….”

“…In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete…” (Hebrews 8).

“…how much more will the blood of Christ…purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God….”

Sacrifice and offering you did not desirewith burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased….”

He sets aside the first to establish the second” (Hebrews 9, 10).

***

Mark Call says:

Does God revoke His Word – even when men fail to keep Covenant? Has He not done all that He promised – always – and then more? He’s kept EVERY Covenant He made — from Adam on.

But God says:

“…In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete…” (Hebrews 8).

Of course God keeps His Word; that you acknowledge this makes your contradicting of it all the more inexplicable.

He has given us a New Covenant so much greater than the Old, but you want to obligate His people to what He has made “obsolete.”

“He sets aside the first to establish the second” (Hebrews 9, 10).

***

Mark Call continued:

You refuse to acknowledge that there could be a difference between the “curse” of the Law, and the teaching and instruction.

That is patently false; where have I written that? I’ve only stated what the Scriptures do.

Of course there is a distinction between the Law and its curse; that does not make the Holy Spirit silent on God’s replacing the Old Covenant with the New.

You deny His whole message on idolatry and the “mixing of the clean and unclean”

You’re lying again. Where have I written anything like that? You cannot produce any of my writings that deny His Word.

You’ve utterly IGNORED every example that the Ruach HaKodesh has led me to suggest to you – from the ‘aleph-tov’ to rainbows, and insist on REPEATING – over and over, ad nauseum…(hasn’t it even occurred to you that if the “Holy Spirit” was guiding you at ALL that you could find another witness SOMEWHERE?)

Jeremiah doesn’t count? Hebrews doesn’t count? Jesus, Peter, and Paul matter not at all? You have to discard a number of Scriptures to claim that I have only one “witness.” It seems imprudent to blame the Holy Spirit for your misusing, misinterpreting, and denying His revelation.

Besides that, how many times must God say something for you to believe it? Obviously, more than a handful, since you deny all the “witnesses” provided in this thread.

If Moshe’s covenant is ‘done away with’ then “How much MORE so” (to use Paul’s persistent illustration) the REALLLY olde stuff from that Noach guy? And why does God still bother making rainbows now that all the “old stuff” is so obsolete?

That’s misusing Paul’s illustration.

Where does God say “all the old stuff is obsolete”? Where does God say that He has done away with His promise to Noah? Where does God say that He has done away with any of His promises? This is another example of your false reasoning.

Just as with Romans 13 (which does not say “Caesar is never wrong” as you falsely claim), you add to the Word of God instead of letting Scripture interpret Scripture.

God does say…

“…He declared all foods clean.”

Eat whatever is sold…If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner…eat whatever is set before you…why should my liberty be determined by someone else’s conscience?”

“…neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything.”

Let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come….”

The Old Covenant “…was being brought to an end…,” “…once had glory…,” “…has come to have no glory at all…,” and “…was being brought to an end….”

“…a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced…Jesus [is] the guarantor of a better covenant.

Christ’s new ministry is “…much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better….”

“…if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second….”

I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers….”

“…In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete…”

“…how much more will the blood of Christ…purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God….”

Sacrifice and offering you did not desirewith burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased….”

and “He sets aside the first to establish the second.

You deny God’s clear Word to serve your false teaching.

That seems unwise.

***

Mark Call continued:

[nowhere, obviously – which has been my stunningly clear point all along]

Clear?

You have been conflating quite sloppily the Mosaic Covenant with God’s promises of grace to His people.

God’s promises of blessing to Israel under the Mosaic Covenant were only if they kept all His commands, which neither they nor their descendants could do (as noted by Peter). Under the Mosaic Covenant, that left only one promise to keep: death and destruction.

Did the same guy write both of these lines?

You’re confused because you will not say only (and all of) what God says.

The Mosaic Covenant is what God says He has “set aside” in favor of His New Covenant in Christ’s blood.

The promises made to Adam, Noah, and Abraham are distinct from the Mosaic Covenant.

God is clear when He speaks. You should allow Him to speak for Himself.

***
Mark Call conflated the Two Kingdoms, trying to justify the Declaration of Independence at the expense of Scripture.

Mark Call wrongly stated that Romans 13 teaches, “Caesar is never wrong.”

Mark Call touts his iron grasp of the Mosaic Covenant, but failed to note properly that only the high priest could enter the Holy of Holies, and that only once a year (until Christ came and entered the true Most Holy Place by His own blood, fulfilling a “shadow” of the Mosaic Covenant and one that Mark Call does not keep).

Mark Call argued that if a Christian “loves Jesus” he will keep all the regulations of the Mosaic Covenant, even though YHWH set aside the Old Covenant for the New, Better One, having fulfilled the requirements of the former in His Son.

Mark Call argued that the commands Jesus would have His people obey are those He says He has made “obsolete,” “set aside,” and “fulfilled.” Ironically, just as the Pharisees were rebuked for following externally the letter of the Law but breaking it inwardly, and just as the Judaizers were rightly excoriated for requiring Christ’s people to obey the regulations of the “obsolete” Mosaic Covenant that had been “set aside” and “fulfilled,” so also Mark Call breaks the Law but makes obligatory that which God no longer requires.

Now, despite multiple Biblical passages stating the setting aside of the Mosaic Covenant for a New and Better One, Mark Call wants to make Scripture contradict Scripture by arguing that Christ’s statement “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done” (Matthew 5:18) actually means:

-when Jesus says all foods are “clean,” they are not really clean “if we love Him.”

-when YHWH says that no one should judge His people with regard to Sabbath days, we will observe them “if we love Him.”

-when Christ says that He set aside the Mosaic Covenant for the New, Better One, it wasn’t really set aside, since we will obey all those regulations “if we love Him.”

-when YHWH says the Mosaic regulations were only shadows of better things to come fulfilled by His Son, we will obey those shadows anyway “if we love Him.”

Let’s see how Mark Call holds up under his own (false) teaching:

How does he obey this command: “You must not sacrifice the Passover in any town the LORD your God gives you except in the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name” (Deuteronomy 16)?

I hope he was circumcised as a baby since, “An alien living among you who wants to celebrate the LORD’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat of it” (Exodus 12:48).

Does Mark Call keep his wife away from worship? He must, since no priest lives to make the required offering in the way YHWH commanded:

Speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl, saying, “When a woman has conceived, and has given birth…she shall be unclean seven days, as in the days of her monthly separation she is unclean….And she remains in the blood of her cleansing…She does not touch whatever is set-apart [holy], and she does not come into the set-apart [holy] place until the days of her cleansing are completed.

…And when the days of her cleansing are completed…she brings to the priest a lamb a year old, as a burnt offering, and a young pigeon or a turtledove as a sin offering, to the door of the Tent of Meeting. And he shall bring it before יהוה, and make atonement for her, and she shall be cleansed from the flow of her blood. This is the Torah for her who has given birth to a male or a female. ‘And if she is not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one as a burnt offering and the other as a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement for her, and she shall be clean’” (Leviticus 12).

And I fervently hope that any children he has don’t curse him.

A look at the context of Matthew 5:18 might help here:

Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete. For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.

Whoever…breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.

For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into the reign of the heavens.

You heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder…’.

Christ here makes clear that we are completely unable to fulfill the Law ourselves.–we need Him. He also states that those commands will not pass away until they are fulfilled.

Who fulfilled them? Who “does and teaches them”? Who possesses a righteousness that “exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees”?

Not Mark Call.

Christ.

He fulfilled the Torah in several ways. First, He explained (and demonstrated) the Commandments truest, fullest meaning. Second, He actually obeyed those commands. Third, He was and did that to which the shadows pointed: the true High Priest sacrificed the true Lamb without blemish (Himself), establishing the New and Better Covenant in His own blood. And in Him, we are declared righteous. The requirements of the Law are fully met in us (Romans 8). Fourth, He fulfilled all of which the Law and Prophets foretold.

Mark Call wrote:

When Yeshua…says He did NOT do something….

What did Jesus say? He said that He did not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it. He said all foods are clean. He said that He set aside the “obsolete” Old Covenant for a New and Better One.

He said, “It is finished!”
Mark Call continued:

Is the Saviour lying? Or Paul? Or is it just PERHAPS possible that what you’ve been told (Yeshua said “you have HEARD it said…but I TELL you…” Paul said was wrong.

It seems instead that you misrepresent Scripture by ignoring those passages that contradict your erroneous teachings.

Rather than take one verse, misinterpret its message, and ignore the rest of Scripture correcting that misinterpretation, why not actually let Scripture interpret Scripture? Why pick and choose only that which allows an idiosyncratic and heretical doctrine? Why reject the words of God that clearly show the Mosaic Covenant has been “set aside” for a New and Better One?

How can Jesus mean for us to obey what He has made “obsolete,” “set aside,” and “fulfilled”? When He said, “If you love Me, then keep my commandments,” was He not referring to what He actually taught?

Peter warned you that the ignorant and untaught would twist Paul, to their own destruction. God, through Hosea (4:6) likewise warned you. All I’ve done is warn you likewise – word for Word.

“Warning” is not synonymous with “heresy.”

In two millennia, the only well-known heretics teaching anything like Mark Call’s doctrine have been the Judaizers. You know what Paul said about them.

But “thou has rejected knowledge”…

Actually, I’ve pointed out from Scripture that those commands Mark Call says we would obey “if we love Jesus” are called by YHWH “obsolete,” “set aside,” “passing away,” and “fulfilled by Christ.”

It seems Mark Call does not really understand the depth of his sin, the purpose of the Law, or the work of Christ for us.

On the work of God, from John 6:

So they said to Him, “What should we do to work the works of Elohim?

יהושע answered and said to them, “This is the work of Elohim, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

From 1 John 3:

…whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we guard His commands and do what is pleasing in His sight.

And this is His command, that we should believe in the Name of His Son יהושע Messiah and love one another, as He gave us command.

From 1 John 5:

For this is the love for Elohim, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy, because everyone having been born of Elohim overcomes the world. And this is the overcoming that has overcome the world: our belief.

Who is the one who overcomes the world but he who believes that יהושע is the Son of Elohim?

…Elohim has given us everlasting life, and this life is in His Son. He who possesses the Son possesses life, he who does not possess the Son of Elohim does not possess life.

On the setting aside of the Mosaic Covenant with the New and Better One, from Hebrews 9:

Now the first covenant indeed had regulations of worship and the earthly set-apart [holy] place. For a Tent was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, and the table…

…into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for sins of ignorance of the people, the Set-apart Spirit signifying this, that the way into the Most Set-apart Place was not yet made manifest while the first Tent has a standing, which was a parable for the present time in which both gifts and slaughters are offered which are unable to perfect the one serving, as to his conscience, only as to foods and drinks, and different washings, and fleshly regulations imposed until a time of setting matters straight.

But Messiah, having become a High Priest of the coming good matters, through the greater and more perfect Tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, entered into the Most Set-apart Place once for all, not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood, having obtained everlasting redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the defiled, sets apart for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of the Messiah, who through the everlasting Spirit offered Himself unblemished to Elohim, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living Elohim?

…because of this He is the Mediator of a renewed covenant, so that, death having taken place for redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, those who are called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance….

It was necessary, then, that the copies of the heavenly ones should be cleansed with these, but the heavenly ones themselves with better slaughter offerings than these. For Messiah has not entered into a Set-apart Place made by hand – figures of the true – but into the heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of Elohim on our behalf, not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters into the Set-apart Place year by year with blood not his own. For if so, He would have had to suffer often, since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the offering of Himself.

The regulations of the Mosaic Covenant were put into place to teach us of, and lead us to, Christ. They were all fulfilled in, and by, Him.

The commands Christ would have His people obey are not those He fulfilled, set aside, and made obsolete, but those He actually taught us to obey.

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