Amillennialist

Supporting Calvin’s heresies by making a false moral equivalence between deities

In Calvinism, Christianity on August 25, 2008 at 4:17 PM

More in response to someone who, if he is not a Calvinist, has latent Calvinist tendencies.

It appears that Mr. McDust is trying to support Calvin’s heresies by making a false moral equivalence between his god and Christ. His main argument is essentially one, giant tu quoque.

Where in my comment did I say I was a Calvinist??

I don’t think you did.

Judging by the emotional and defensive tone of your comments in response to posts critical of Calvinism, I assumed naturally you were. Who else would try to make Christ as monstrous as Calvin’s god?

So, are you a Calvinist? If not, why would you attempt to equate the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob with his capricious beast?

Or do you just hate Roman Catholics?

The main thrust of my comment (including the “drunk boyfriend” example) was to point out to YOU that YOU “blame God” for evil (that is, if you affirm that God is sovereign), just as much as you accuse Calvinists of doing. I can’t believe that point was lost on you.

One cannot lose that which never existed.

Your “argument” does not apply to me since I do not blame God for human evil. Neither do I mistake God’s patience — His desiring that all should repent and live — for malice, indifference, or impotence.

God will address every wrong that needs addressing.

If Christ were to wipe out every evil, who would be left? Would you prefer that?

You have blood on your hands, too.

I’ll ask you again — Do you believe that God is all-powerful and all-knowing? That’s a simple question, right? And I would prefer that you answer that question in the comments section of this post, please. So that people can easily see the entirety of what I actually said, rather than seeing your carefully [. . . ] version of what I said, in which you intentionally distort my original meaning.

I included a link to your comments. What a clumsy thing to do if I wanted to “intentionally distort” your meaning. If I wanted to do that, I’d delete your comment entirely and have my way with your post.

If you believe that God is truly all-powerful and all-knowing (i.e. sovereign), then you yourself are just as legitimately accused of “blaming” God for evil and for people going to Hell as Calvinists are. Now, note: I’m not saying it’s a LEGITIMATE accusation–I’m saying it’s JUST as legitimate as your accustation is against Calvinists.

Calvinists teach that God creates people for Hell (Double Predestination). Those who end up there roast only because of His “divine sovereignty.”

That is blasphemy, since the Bible says that those who end up in Hell do so because of their own sin.

Calvinists also teach that God did not die for all, does not have mercy on all, does not work in the hearts of all. The Bible says that Christ atoned for the sins of the whole world, reconciling us all to His Father through His body on the cross.

If you DON’T believe that God is truly all-powerful and all-knowing, then you’re guilty of heresy/blasphemy; in which case, if I were you I’d maybe focus a little more on my own severely flawed theology rather than the flawed theology of others.

So, you call teaching God’s holiness and mercy — not His capriciousness and malevolence — and human depravity “heresy/blasphemy.”

Are you sure you’re not a Calvinist?

So, take your pick — is God all-powerful and all-knowing or is He not? I’m looking forward to your answer, right after this comment… in the comment section… of THIS post… Thanks.

God is omniscient and omnipotent. That doesn’t mean that He creates people for suffering.

Analogies often break down easily, but since the Word of God is not enough for you, I’ll try one.

You are arguing that for Someone to know their child will suffer evil in this life and still create them makes God a monster.

You’ve just smeared every mother and father who’s ever lived.

Because you affirm that God is sovereign– YOU believe that God, before He created this existence exactly as He did, foresaw the situation of LOTS of people going to Hell. And yet God decided to go ahead and create this existence exactly as He did anyway. That is, He had the choice to create this existence any way He wanted, knowing LOTS of people would end up in Hell if He created it this particular way, and, in light of this knowledge, He decided to create it this particular way.

So (again, assuming you DO believe that God is all-knowing) how is it that you are less legitimately accused of “blaming God” than Calvinists are?

The Calvinist’s god creates people for Hell and denies Christ’s atoning sacrifice to many.

The God of the Bible creates people for eternal life, and restores that life through Christ’s atoning sacrifice for all.

If you can’t make that simple distinction, there’s not much more to say.

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  1. First off, I had no idea you were a Roman Catholic. I just stumbled onto a post in your blog through a series of a few links. “Hate” –goodness gracious, don’t take me that personally.

    If you go back and read that very first comment I made, read it as having been written from an agnostic/atheistic standpoint. That’s the angle I was coming at you from. You’ll notice I’ve offered no defense of any Calvinist tenet. (I was fairly horrified that you characterized me as a representative of Calvinism, as if the statements I had made in order to shine some light on some of the monstrous implications of your own theology were meant as straight representations of Calvinist thought.)

    I’ve merely tried to point out that your offense at what you see as Calvinist theology’s implications that “blaspheme” God by making Him out to be malicious, cruel, cold, blameworthy, etc… are the same implications that YOUR theology has, if you believe in an all-powerful God Who has sovereignly decided to send people to an eternal life of total misery, oftentimes after enduring an earthly life of total misery, simply for not believing in Him, even though He has the power (being all-powerful) to save them.

    What kind of merciful non-monster is that compared to the Calvinist monster?

    I’ve merely tried to point up a bit of hypocrisy I’ve seen in your accusations against Calvinists. You’re appalled that the God of Calvinism has “created people for Hell”… Fair enough. But you don’t seem to understand that your God, in His omnipotence and omniscience, has essentially done the exact same thing — since you believe that Hell is populated with souls that He knew full well would end up there before He laid the foundations of the earth (i.e. before He decided to go ahead and create those souls, despite His foreknowledge of where they were gonna end up).

    6 of one, half dozen of the other, as they say.

    Any agnostic/atheist dropping in on a diatribe against the Calvinist Monster-God who creates millions of people for hell, a diatribe offered by a person who believes in a God who created hell for millions of people, would just have to laugh and try to point out the ridiculousness. That’s all I’ve tried to do.

    Anyway, whatever. I suspect you still don’t see and/or agree with my point, and that’s fine. I’m done.

    (Yes, obviously I do have Calvinist sympathies–particularly from a purely academic and intellectual standpoint–but I have severe enough problems with all rigid theological systems, including Calvinism, that I can’t rightly call myself by any of their names.)

    (In conclusion: Death to Islam. There’s something we can agree on.)

  2. First off, I had no idea you were a Roman Catholic. I just stumbled onto a post in your blog through a series of a few links. “Hate” –goodness gracious, don’t take me that personally.

    If you go back and read that very first comment I made, read it as having been written from an agnostic/atheistic standpoint. That’s the angle I was coming at you from. You’ll notice I’ve offered no defense of any Calvinist tenet. (I was fairly horrified that you characterized me as a representative of Calvinism, as if the statements I had made in order to shine some light on some of the monstrous implications of your own theology were meant as straight representations of Calvinist thought.)

    I’ve merely tried to point out that your offense at what you see as Calvinist theology’s implications that “blaspheme” God by making Him out to be malicious, cruel, cold, blameworthy, etc… are the same implications that YOUR theology has, if you believe in an all-powerful God Who has sovereignly decided to send people to an eternal life of total misery, oftentimes after enduring an earthly life of total misery, simply for not believing in Him, even though He has the power (being all-powerful) to save them.

    What kind of merciful non-monster is that compared to the Calvinist monster?

    I’ve merely tried to point up a bit of hypocrisy I’ve seen in your accusations against Calvinists. You’re appalled that the God of Calvinism has “created people for Hell”… Fair enough. But you don’t seem to understand that your God, in His omnipotence and omniscience, has essentially done the exact same thing — since you believe that Hell is populated with souls that He knew full well would end up there before He laid the foundations of the earth (i.e. before He decided to go ahead and create those souls, despite His foreknowledge of where they were gonna end up).

    6 of one, half dozen of the other, as they say.

    Any agnostic/atheist dropping in on a diatribe against the Calvinist Monster-God who creates millions of people for hell, a diatribe offered by a person who believes in a God who created hell for millions of people, would just have to laugh and try to point out the ridiculousness. That’s all I’ve tried to do.

    Anyway, whatever. I suspect you still don’t see and/or agree with my point, and that’s fine. I’m done.

    (Yes, obviously I do have Calvinist sympathies–particularly from a purely academic and intellectual standpoint–but I have severe enough problems with all rigid theological systems, including Calvinism, that I can’t rightly call myself by any of their names.)

    (In conclusion: Death to Islam. There’s something we can agree on.)

  3. Thank you for your comments, Dusty.

    First off, I had no idea you were a Roman Catholic.

    I am not.

    I just figured if you could argue what appeared to be a Calvinist position without claiming to be a Calvinist, I could mention Roman Catholicism without being Roman Catholic. :)

    (I was fairly horrified that you characterized me as a representative of Calvinism, as if the statements I had made in order to shine some light on some of the monstrous implications of your own theology were meant as straight representations of Calvinist thought.)

    It appears that you don’t really understand “my” theology.

    if you believe in an all-powerful God Who has sovereignly decided to send people to an eternal life of total misery, oftentimes after enduring an earthly life of total misery, simply for not believing in Him, even though He has the power (being all-powerful) to save them.

    God exercised that saving power for all people by sacrificing His own Son on a cross.

    The problem here is the assertion that God sends people to Hell “simply for not believing in Him.”

    What does God say? “The soul that sins is the one who will die.”

    All sins — not just unbelief — send people to Hell.

    (What would you do with the murderer? Rapist? Pedophile? Genocidal monster? Mohammed? Yet Christ died for his sins, too.)

    UNBELIEF REJECTS GOD’S SAVING POWER. That people end up in Hell is not evidence of His cruelty or indifference, it is evidence of people’s utter wickedness.

    If one rejects Christ and His payment for sin, there’s only one payment left, and it’s coming out of your own pocket.

    To blame God for punishing sin is like hating a cop for arresting a rapist. It is perverse.

    You’re appalled that the God of Calvinism has “created people for Hell”… Fair enough.

    Thank you.

    But you don’t seem to understand that your God, in His omnipotence and omniscience, has essentially done the exact same thing

    No, creating people for Hell is not dying on a cross to take away their sins.

    Is that not obvious, even to someone with “latent Calvinist tendencies”? :)

    since you believe that Hell is populated with souls that He knew full well would end up there before He laid the foundations of the earth (i.e. before He decided to go ahead and create those souls, despite His foreknowledge of where they were gonna end up).

    6 of one, half dozen of the other, as they say.

    Foreknowledge is not predestination. Knowing that your child will suffer (perhaps terribly and chronically) and die (pretty much guaranteed!) means that you should have never given birth? Or committed infanticide?

    a diatribe offered by a person who believes in a God who created hell for millions of people

    What does God say? Hell was created for the devil and his angels, not for man.

    Man was created for Life, and even though we reject it — even though we make ourselves enemies of God! — in His mercy Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

    The Calvinist denies both those two essential points. He says that God created only a few for Life (the rest for Hell), and Christ died for only a few.

    THE CALVINIST DENIES GOD’S SAVING POWER TO MANY.

    The contrast couldn’t be more stark.

    (Yes, obviously I do have Calvinist sympathies–particularly from a purely academic and intellectual standpoint–but I have severe enough problems with all rigid theological systems, including Calvinism, that I can’t rightly call myself by any of their names.)

    Which is why it is best to ask, “What does God say?”

  4. Thank you for your comments, Dusty.

    First off, I had no idea you were a Roman Catholic.

    I am not.

    I just figured if you could argue what appeared to be a Calvinist position without claiming to be a Calvinist, I could mention Roman Catholicism without being Roman Catholic. :)

    (I was fairly horrified that you characterized me as a representative of Calvinism, as if the statements I had made in order to shine some light on some of the monstrous implications of your own theology were meant as straight representations of Calvinist thought.)

    It appears that you don’t really understand “my” theology.

    if you believe in an all-powerful God Who has sovereignly decided to send people to an eternal life of total misery, oftentimes after enduring an earthly life of total misery, simply for not believing in Him, even though He has the power (being all-powerful) to save them.

    God exercised that saving power for all people by sacrificing His own Son on a cross.

    The problem here is the assertion that God sends people to Hell “simply for not believing in Him.”

    What does God say? “The soul that sins is the one who will die.”

    All sins — not just unbelief — send people to Hell.

    (What would you do with the murderer? Rapist? Pedophile? Genocidal monster? Mohammed? Yet Christ died for his sins, too.)

    UNBELIEF REJECTS GOD’S SAVING POWER. That people end up in Hell is not evidence of His cruelty or indifference, it is evidence of people’s utter wickedness.

    If one rejects Christ and His payment for sin, there’s only one payment left, and it’s coming out of your own pocket.

    To blame God for punishing sin is like hating a cop for arresting a rapist. It is perverse.

    You’re appalled that the God of Calvinism has “created people for Hell”… Fair enough.

    Thank you.

    But you don’t seem to understand that your God, in His omnipotence and omniscience, has essentially done the exact same thing

    No, creating people for Hell is not dying on a cross to take away their sins.

    Is that not obvious, even to someone with “latent Calvinist tendencies”? :)

    since you believe that Hell is populated with souls that He knew full well would end up there before He laid the foundations of the earth (i.e. before He decided to go ahead and create those souls, despite His foreknowledge of where they were gonna end up).

    6 of one, half dozen of the other, as they say.

    Foreknowledge is not predestination. Knowing that your child will suffer (perhaps terribly and chronically) and die (pretty much guaranteed!) means that you should have never given birth? Or committed infanticide?

    a diatribe offered by a person who believes in a God who created hell for millions of people

    What does God say? Hell was created for the devil and his angels, not for man.

    Man was created for Life, and even though we reject it — even though we make ourselves enemies of God! — in His mercy Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

    The Calvinist denies both those two essential points. He says that God created only a few for Life (the rest for Hell), and Christ died for only a few.

    THE CALVINIST DENIES GOD’S SAVING POWER TO MANY.

    The contrast couldn’t be more stark.

    (Yes, obviously I do have Calvinist sympathies–particularly from a purely academic and intellectual standpoint–but I have severe enough problems with all rigid theological systems, including Calvinism, that I can’t rightly call myself by any of their names.)

    Which is why it is best to ask, “What does God say?”

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