Amillennialist

Calvinism blasphemes the Living God

In Calvinism, Double Predestination on October 23, 2008 at 5:44 AM

From here:

A kind lady writes of Romans 9:

“it then goes on to say that they are “prepared for destruction” and then contrasts them with “vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory”. If the contrast was not there, I think it could certainly be describing us all who at some point were objects of wrath, but the analogy fails for me if it’s not talking about two distinct groups of people.”

In that particular verse there is a distinction being made, but it is not between those created for life and those predestined to hell. I bring up “objects of wrath” to point out that all of us are by nature in that category. Would the Calvinist say, “God created all of us for destruction, but then created some of us again for life”?

In our wisdom we assume sometimes that which God does not say, which is why He warns us to speak only His words.

What does God say? Does He have mercy on some as the Calvinists teach, or does He have mercy on all?

“For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all” (Romans 11:32).

The author observes also,

“You say that Calvinism denies God’s kindness, forbearance, and patience to many. I think a Calvinist would say that it is God who does that.”

The God of the Bible has had mercy on all but, as you state correctly, “a Calvinist would say it is God who does that.”

Clearly, it is not God Who refuses His mercy to some, it is the Calvinist, by which he blasphemes the Living God.

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  1. “Would the Calvinist say, “God created all of us for destruction, but then created some of us again for life”?”

    Well no, actually the passage doesn’t mention how God has created people at all. It talks about preparation, is that the same as creation? I don’t know.

    Sure, chapter 11 says “mercy on all”, but chapter 9 says “he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.”

    It seems to me that you discard chapter 9 on the basis of chapter 11 instead of trying to hold the two in tension.

    Or maybe that’s a bi-product of the inferiority of communicating in type.

    Yes, I can see that you were trying to make the point that we were all objects of wrath, and it’s a good point to make, certainly valuable in thinking about this passage, but it in no way clarifies what Paul was talking about. In reading the passage the dichotomy still seems pretty distinct.

  2. “Would the Calvinist say, “God created all of us for destruction, but then created some of us again for life”?”

    Well no, actually the passage doesn’t mention how God has created people at all. It talks about preparation, is that the same as creation? I don’t know.

    Sure, chapter 11 says “mercy on all”, but chapter 9 says “he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.”

    It seems to me that you discard chapter 9 on the basis of chapter 11 instead of trying to hold the two in tension.

    Or maybe that’s a bi-product of the inferiority of communicating in type.

    Yes, I can see that you were trying to make the point that we were all objects of wrath, and it’s a good point to make, certainly valuable in thinking about this passage, but it in no way clarifies what Paul was talking about. In reading the passage the dichotomy still seems pretty distinct.

  3. Hi, Kristarella,

    You mention, “he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills” (Romans 9:18).

    On whom does God have mercy? What is His will?

    God states clearly: “[He] has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all” (Romans 11:32).

    Does YHWH contradict Himself? Would the Paul who wrote Chapter 11 forget what he wrote in Chapter 9?

    With regard to Pharaoh, God says that he was “raised up” (to the position of Most Powerful Man on Earth) “that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

    Does God say that he was created for destruction? No.

    Chapter 9 is about God’s mercy and righteousness to all (as seen in the gracious God descending to man in Exodus 33:19, quoted in Romans 9:15), not predestination to Hell:

    “What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.

    “Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

    Peace,

    Amillennialist

  4. Hi, Kristarella,

    You mention, “he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills” (Romans 9:18).

    On whom does God have mercy? What is His will?

    God states clearly: “[He] has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all” (Romans 11:32).

    Does YHWH contradict Himself? Would the Paul who wrote Chapter 11 forget what he wrote in Chapter 9?

    With regard to Pharaoh, God says that he was “raised up” (to the position of Most Powerful Man on Earth) “that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

    Does God say that he was created for destruction? No.

    Chapter 9 is about God’s mercy and righteousness to all (as seen in the gracious God descending to man in Exodus 33:19, quoted in Romans 9:15), not predestination to Hell:

    “What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.

    “Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

    Peace,

    Amillennialist

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